JENKINS: Let's go straight to Sherpas, because this seems to be intimately connected to what you're talking about-some of the Nepalese trekking agencies on Everest and perhaps not having the skills. Right now we're seeing that Sherpas are being trained to become guides, and I'd like to know what's happening on that front. Do we have at this present time wholly-owned and operated Sherpa guiding services for Everest? And are they capable and competent at this stage? I'm sure at some point they will be. Where does that stand right now?

COTTER: Go Dave

HAHN: No, I was actually going to suggest that you tackle that. (laughter)

COTTER: Ok, well I think that there are actually two questions here. One is the Sherpas being guides, the other is the Sherpa companies. I'll address the Sherpas becoming guides because this is something that's moving along. The Nepalese mountaineering association is certainly trying to push for Sherpas to get more training and for them to be more involved on their own as guides, which I think is fantastic.

All this takes time. It takes [time in] any country to become involved in the International Federation of Mountain Guides (or UAIGM) and for the Nepalese it takes even longer for the difficulties of language and culture, etc.

But Sherpas are naturally fantastic guides. They're great at looking after people, they're very attentive to people's needs, they're wonderful people in general and so that will make them great guides in the future once they get their training. However, there's a lot to be done with them from a technical standpoint, and now there is some training being undertaken in Nepal, just for Sherpas to learn proper technique, which is great to see and I think that's having a positive effect.

As far as them learning first aid, avalanche awareness skills, rescue skills, I think it's still a long way off before the majority of them are going to be capable of anything technical in those areas. But there are a few who have actually become internationally qualified mountain guides by traveling to Europe and such places. So it's actually starting to happen, and that's a great thing.

But there's also the Sherpa companies which are running some of these expeditions and which are owned by Sherpas, and I think that they are really interested in profit, first and foremost. What's surprised me with everything that's gone down on Everest this year is how some of these Nepalese trekking agencies that have been running these expeditions—a lot of the stuff has been going wrong for several years—haven't been getting any flak whatsoever. If it was one of us guiding, one of us western guiding companies, we'd be taken to the ring of by the media, but for some reason they don't want to go there with these Nepalese trekking agencies. But I think that some of it will probably game more scrutiny over time.

JENKINS: Let me ask you quickly, one of these companies is Asian Trekking, and I certainly want Dave or Ed or Neil to jump in as well, but it does seem as if some of these companies are operating on the cheap, and I'm wondering whether there is some at least anecdotal correlation between companies that have inexperienced or no guides, or simply Sherpas who are untrained in search and rescue and the correlation between that and risk and subsequently (or inevitably) death on the mountain.

VIESTURS: You know, I think the reasons that some of these services are actually able to operate is that there are people that are looking for that level of service. Or they think that that's the only level of service that they need. A lot of these people think that they have enough experience that they don't need a guide to climb Everest. They just want someone to organize and run the trip so they can go off and climb the mountain.

A lot of those people that do sign up have definitely overestimate their abilities and in the end they underestimate what the mountain can do. A lot of those people and a lot of those groups, they get in trouble. And then it's the people running the higher-end trips with the experience and the strength that have to come to their rescue.

So it's supply and demand. These people are operating companies because there are people who are looking for that level of service. And it's hard to get rid of that.

HAHN: And getting back to what has to happen before Sherpas can be fully or responsibly involved in guiding over there, is the build-up of skills that we're seeing. But there's also what I see as two main obstacles.

Economics, I think, become more of a factor for Sherpas. We talked about the pressure on western guides that guiding rich clients brings out, but it's amplified, really amplified when you're combining that with Sherpas who are economically (as far as Nepal goes) doing very well, but there's still a huge gap between them and a wealthy westerner. That can create extra pressure, so I think that's one big obstacle.

The other obstacle that I worry about is that somebody might use the help of a Sherpa, might hire a Sherpa and use everything that that Sherpa has to offer until that Sherpa says, "hey, I don't feel good about this. I don't trust the weather anymore, we're not doing well enough, time to go down." Then I have this fear that then it reverts to "you're just kinda carrying my stuff, and I'm making the big decisions here, so I'm going on to the top." That they'll take what the Sherpa has to offer in terms of strength and everything, but then they don't quite have the stature yet…well, as we all like to think we have the ability to turn somebody around by having ultimate authority up there.

BIEDLEMAN: Yup, that's a very good point Dave. And even in '96, I felt that a little bit as a western third guide myself. It's hard to get to the point where you can command that authority and use it appropriately, because the consequences on either end are big at times.

I think that we're talking a lot about clients, or customers that definitely need guiding. I think there's another group of people who deserve some place or some means to get onto the mountain and maybe get some help with permitting and things like that—and those are people who are experienced climbers who maybe want to go and try Everest on their own and maybe the only thing they don't want to deal with is getting the permit. Maybe some of these types of expeditions are right for them. Usually they will take care of themselves very well and will understand what it is what they're getting from these services, and then not get their expectations above that and then take care of themselves very well.

But I think it's important that we keep in mind that there are lots of other people, and some who are very competent and capable of climbing Everest and making good decisions, and we need to make sure they have a place and a means to get there and do it themselves.

HAHN: You don't usually hear about them so much afterwards.

BIEDLEMAN: No, you don't because they do it right, whether they're successful or not, they usually keep themselves out of trouble pretty well and manage their teams well, but that's sort of the nature that comes to that sort of team—knowing themselves and each other kind of early on.