JENKINS: Ed, I'd like you to say just a couple words on cohesiveness. We had a lengthy discussion on it, and you seemed to think that that was at the core of a functioning team. I think that readers would like to know about it.

VIESTURS: Well yeah, I mean traditionally, when you go on an expedition to a mountain, the very altruistic way that people did it was we'd join together, whether it was ten or 12 or 15 of us. We work together, we know each other, we like each other, and ultimately the goal was to maybe get two of those people to the summit.

I mean that was the way I started reading about the history of these large-scale expeditions. Now, there is less cohesiveness because when people sign up for an organized expedition, when they show up in Kathmandu, they really haven't met each other and then all of a sudden they're together on one of these climbs.

I know that when I try to run one of these trips, I try to get the people involved with each other and to help each other and to start working as a team. But as you get higher and get closer and closer to the summit, people tend to think a little bit more selfishly.

They've gotten themselves into that position, they kind of want to take care of themselves, they've paid a lot of money and then here we are getting close to the summit so their extra energy, rather than being spread out through the team, kind of gets contained within themselves because they want to get themselves to the top.

Then, if something were to go wrong not only within their team but perhaps with somebody that's not even part of their team, then they really have to start thinking hard, really "what do I have to do to help that other person? Because ultimately it is going to compromise what I'm trying to do." So there's a bit of a difference now in the way the term "team" is put together, and how these people are interacting and how they're thinking about the group as a whole.

BIEDLEMAN: Yeah, it's so true Ed. When you get a group together…

My thought was—and I certainly saw this on our trip, and have seen it in other guided trips to other places—that from a client's perspective, they don't necessarily have the reasons to care so much about other people's problems. They have just met these people, there's not this cohesiveness there. And if they're good people, and good-natured human beings and all that, they care because there are other people there, but there's not a longstanding friendship or a relationship that goes back, as a lot of climbers have who have been climbing together have, and again as Ed alluded to.

But the other perspective, looking down, from a guide's perspective, it's his or her responsibility to look after all the needs of not only himself and his team but of the clients.

So there's not a complete reciprocity there that used to be there when teams were formed months or years before a trip took off and everybody really knew each other and even trained together and went out and did some climbs together beforehand. So it's a different kind of thing, and the burden on guides now, and certainly these other guides can talk to it really is well, is that it's really hard to form a team where the team members know and quickly learn that their responsibilities are more than just for themselves. It's hard to do.

HAHN: I'd agree with that and certainly with what Ed and Guy we're saying about cohesiveness, and the lack of it being a problem. The way I would address that is, you know, make a more manageable situation. Have fewer climbers on the trip, fewer novice climbers, fewer customers, and add resources—add stronger Sherpas, more Sherpas, more experienced. Add more western guides. Add to the cost!

JENKINS: Basically Dave, what you're saying is you can increase cohesiveness—which, according to Ed and Guy, increases safety and perhaps success. But that means reducing client-to-guide ratio, which means increasing the cost. Is that an accurate perception?

HAHN: Yeah, but I don't own a guide service, and I don't have to convince clients to come on the telephone, so I can say that! And certainly there is a limit there, but that is my response to a lot of that stuff—make it cost more. Personally, I don't have much sympathy for somebody that wants to be there on the cheap, somebody that wants to save a little money on their boots, their gloves, their guide. I don't really want to be there with those folks.

JENKINS: Why is that David? Are you saying that because they want to go on the cheap, they're putting themselves at greater risk and therefore putting you at greater risk? What do you mean by "you don't really have sympathy" or "you don't want to be with them necessarily?"

HAHN: I guess it comes down to that after 11 Everest expeditions, I'm still pretty scared of Everest. I think it's guidable, I like working on the mountain, but looking up a the thing at the beginning of a trip still scares me, and worrying about what can go wrong…well that's a constant part of these trips for me.

So I guess I want to be with people that are a little worried as well and have either made up for that worry by getting themselves in incredibly good shape or gathering up a ton of good experience, or at very least having devoted the financial resources to put together a trip that has a fighting chance. And yeah, we're talking about lack of cohesiveness, well, with ten or 15 clients, yeah there's more chance of that lack of cohesiveness when people don't know each other.

If you can reduce those numbers a little bit, perhaps there's a better chance of achieving that cohesiveness, and getting a real "team feel" and an obligation to each other. I don't know, it's a possibility.