Jon Krakauer on Everest
(Editor's note: On Sunday, June 2, CBS will air a story based on a recent interview with Jon Krakauer, who reached the summit of Mount Everest on May 10, the same day eight climbers--including members of Jon's group--died on the mountain. Here is a transcript from our chat with Jon on Thursday, May 23. Outside Online also spoke with him before that fateful summit day.)
Jon Krakauer, climber and Outside magazine contributing editor, recently returned from summiting Mount Everest amid the peak's deadliest storm ever. From the mountain, Krakauer observed firsthand the disastrous unfolding of weather and crowding as eight climbers died.
John from starwave.com at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 3:55pm ET
Jon, the risk of dying while climbing Everest is supposed to be something like one in six. Those are Russian roulette odds. How do climbers square the risk with the reward when embarking on these expeditions?
 Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 3:58pm ET
In fact, statistically the risk is closer to one in 33. And I don't square the risk. I mean, climbing is an irrational act. It makes no sense. It defies logic. It's something I'm compelled to do. I'm not sure why. I'm at a loss to explain it in any way that makes any sense.
Mitch from starwave.com at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 3:46pm ET
In today's New York Times, you said that you don't really understand what drives you to climb mountains. How do you explain your motivation to friends and family?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:01pm ET
I just don't. Friends and family understand me and just know that climbing is part of who I am and they don't really ask for an explanation anymore, although they used to. It's more new acquaintances or well-meaning strangers. In climbing, either you get it or you don't. People who climb or have the urge to climb--even vicariously--understand it. And others just can't begin to. And one wouldn't expect them to. I've written two books--Eiger Dreams and Into the Wild--that deal with this question of risk and why people do it. And I'm sure I've failed to explain it in both those books. I've devoted many months, years, in those books to try to explain this question and I haven't succeeded. I don't think I ever will.
Sarah from [152.163.193.81] at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 3:58pm ET
In light of this latest tragedy, what do you have to say about experienced climbers escorting less experienced climbers on highly dangerous expeditions?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:03pm ET
It's a huge responsibility. The inexperienced climbers are at the mercy of the guides. They lack the skills or experience to make judgments of their own. Before the guide invites the inexperienced client along, he or she better be sure he or she knows what they're doing, knows what's at stake.
John Needham from [144.142.47.121] at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:01pm ET
I have read that the Nepalese government cannot rescue climbers. When a helicopter is used, for instance, when chartered by the U.S. Embassy in Kathmandu, where does the helicopter come from? What does it cost for a rescue mission like that? Thanks.
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:05pm ET
I don't fully understand the question. In this case, Beck Weathers and Makalu Gao were rescued by a Nepalese military helicopter flown by a Nepalese pilot who did an amazing job of landing at 20,000 feet. The helicopter came from Kathmandu. There were other rescues earlier in the season with helicopters flown by private companies. I think each rescue cost about $5,000 per flight. They're run by Nepali private companies. There's a number of different kinds of helicopters, most of them are big Russian things that can hold 24 people and a whole lot of gear.
Ram from intel.com at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:02pm ET
Jon, do you think the Everest disaster is being exploited? Obviously, there are a lot of us who'd want to read a book by you about the event, but how do you make the distinction between a book/IMAX film that wouldn't exploit the tragedy, and a NBC movie of the week that might exploit it?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:08pm ET
I think whether it's exploitation or not is all in the telling. It's all in the quality of whatever the product is. If it's good reporting and good analysis, then it's not. If it's just a bunch of bullshit cranked out to make money, then it's clearly exploitation. Some people would say the article I'm going to write for Outside magazine is exploitation. Everyone draws their own conclusions.
Steve from uu.net at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:05pm ET
Climbers anticipating whiteout conditions often place wands as they ascend. Is this not possible in Himalayan conditions? It seems as if it might have solved some problems in this case.
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:10pm ET
It would have been possible. It wouldn't have solved many, if any, problems. The people who got lost got lost on the South Col, which is rocky and icy. Wands wouldn't have worked there. It's just too icy. There's no snow--it's all blown away. They were off-route anyway. They would have been away from the wand route. It's hard to explain why people 200 yards away from the tents were dying and couldn't get back to those tents and why people in the tents couldn't save them. If you were there you would understand.
Curt from af.mil at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:04pm ET
Jon, I've read Eiger Dreams and how does your recent experience on Everest compare to the other challenges you have faced on the world's toughest mountains?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:12pm ET
Everest was the most physically demanding. It took more out of me physically than anything--anything, climb or not--I've ever done. Technically it was much less difficult than almost any climb I've ever done--any serious climb. In some ways it wasn't very satisfying because I was a client and, as such, I was forced to defer to the decisions of the guides. Our guides were very good. But to me, climbing is about self-reliance, about making your own decisions, about making your own judgments. And I was given less of an opportunity to do that than I would have liked, although in the end the decisions I did make probably saved my life.
Derek Yegian from lbl.gov at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:09pm ET
How do you feel about "rescue" insurance being added to the standard entrance fee at national parks, forests, etc.? Do you feel cellular phones will be abused by hikers asking for help in cases where previously they would hike out themselves?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:14pm ET
I think it's inevitable that cell phones will be abused--I don't know if intentionally, but sure, they'll be abused. Rescue insurance ... in principle, it's a good idea but I distrust the National Park Service's management. They've shown on Denali their motives are impure and not to be trusted.
KathyI from mn.us at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:12pm ET
My geography class was following Fischer's team on the Net, and they are stunned by the tragedy. These kids are flatlanders from Minnesota and find it hard to imagine that being "on top of the world" can be worth the risk. Can you explain the feeling to them?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:15pm ET
It's not worth the loss of human life. Before you go up, you assume everything's going to turn out OK. If you didn't, you wouldn't do it. I mean, it's a wonderful feeling. Climbing any mountain is. But when people die, it never seems worth it.
Curt from af.mil at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:13pm ET
Jon, what made the difference for the survivors on Everest? Was it determination, luck, experience, or physical ability? From the Newsweek article it seems Rob Hall stayed with his client out of obligation. Is this true or were both climbers trapped with fatigue?
Curt
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:18pm ET
Rob Hall stayed with his client, Doug Hansen, out of professionalism and loyalty until it was too late and then he became fatigued and frostbitten and his fate was sealed. As to why some people survived and some didn't, I'm not sure. I would like to think I survived because of my experience and skill. But when it comes down to it, I think luck had a huge role to play. And I think if things had turned out a little differently, 15 or 20 people could easily have died instead of just eight. Things were that sketchy. Many survivors had very, very close calls.
The Moderator at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:14pm ET
Do you think this is something guides realize, do they understand that they're tying their fate to that of their weakest climber?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:19pm ET
I think every guide knows that. Every guide I've ever talked to knows that. I've had long discussions with guides. I won't guide. I mean, I don't want my life to be determined by some guy tripping over his crampons and pulling me off. But I think every guide knows that comes with the territory, that a weak client is a very real liability. I think Rob knew that, too. I think he just didn't take the weather seriously enough. And maybe too overconfident. He'd climbed Everest just too many times, and he'd gotten a lot of weak clients up. This is the first time he'd ever had a bad storm.
Lisa from mn.us at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:15pm ET
You just said that the decisions you made probably saved your life. Can you tell us about some of the specific moments and specific decisions?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:20pm ET
When I first saw the weather getting bad I made the decision to descend immediately without waiting for any guides or anyone's approval. On the way up, I made the decision to study the South Col very closely, repeatedly, and so I had some idea how to navigate back to camp in a whiteout. I just used my experience to maintain nonstop concentration throughout the descent. Even though I was exhausted, my oxygen had run out, and I was stupid from hypoxia.
Lori Kats from [198.211.41.188] at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:17pm ET
Hi, Jon. I listened to you talk in Menlo Park, California, about your book Into The Wild. I was just wondering if you saw any parallels with what just happened on Everest and what happened in the book? All I can say is I'm glad you are alive!
Thanks,
Lori
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:22pm ET
Thanks. Yes, there are a lot of parallels between my book Into the Wild and what happened on Everest in the sense that Into the Wild is a discussion of risk and the compulsions some people have to take risks. And the morality of taking those risks. I address some of these same issues in Into the Wild. It's a question I've asked over and over again of myself and others: Why do people, why do I, why do we do this stuff? And I don't know the answer.
Mary from [204.29.17.85] at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:19pm ET
This question has troubled me since the tragedy on Everest. What is the moral code or standard (if any) among mountaineers for the decision of whether or not to rescue someone off the mountain?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:24pm ET
I think most climbers at sea level would tell you if someone's in trouble you should rescue them if it's at all within your power. That's complicated above 8,000 meters by the context, by conditions, by the lack of oxygen coming to your brain. I think most of us who were up there are troubled because we could have done more to save those who died. I think I could have, I think a number of people could have. We were at camp in our tents, vaguely aware there was some trouble, people were dying. And we didn't do anything about it. Or didn't do anything soon enough. You're really limited in what you can do, but you always feel like you can do more. I mean, at 8,000 meters, when trouble really comes, everyone's on their own. Some people are really strong, like Anatoli (Boukreev). He saved lives.
Tara from mn.us at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:23pm ET
Do you think the Sherpas have been given the credit they deserve for their efforts in the rescue?
Jon Krakauer at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:27pm ET
No. Sherpas haven't received the credit they deserve for Everest climbing in general. Without them no one would get up. They do most of the work, haul most of the loads, and they did most of the work in trying to rescue Rob (Hall) and Scott (Fischer) and in rescuing Makalu (Gao). No, they haven't received nearly the amount of credit they deserve.
The Moderator at Thursday, May 23, 1996, 4:30pm ET
The chat with Jon Krakauer has concluded. We thank all our users for their participation in this event. Stay tuned to Summit Journal '96 for an in-depth interview with Jon next week.
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